Dining across the divide: ‘I said, if the whole world were to turn vegan, half of us would starve to death’
Alex, 28, Loughborough
Occupation Programmer
Voting record Most recently, Labour; before that, Lib Dem
Amuse bouche During the pandemic, volunteered for vaccine trials, which involved getting infected with Covid, but didn’t meet the minimum weight
Graham, 63, Ashbourne, Derbyshire
Occupation Transport manager
Voting record Normally Conservative. Tried but failed to coordinate a vote strike on X in 2024, so backed Reform
Amuse bouche Used to play in a quiz league, where he competed against one of the Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? winners (unsuccessfully)
For starters
Alex He seemed like a regular older man, someone who doesn’t accept dogma or conventional arguments, and is always trying to think for himself.
Graham He was very entertaining, educational, enlightening. I did commit a minor faux pas at the start of the meal. I got there before Alex, and my appetiser came first. It was shrimp crackers. I said, “Help yourself,” and forgot he was vegan! He found it amusing rather than offensive, I hope.
Alex I got pickled vegetables, then miso soup with tofu. Then mochi balls.
Graham I’ve gone as far as leaving a review on Tripadvisor for the restaurant: the pork and bacon was very good.
The big beef
Alex I’m an abolitionist vegan: we should not be using animals for food, clothing, entertainment or science. We consider dairy farming as among the cruellest of the agricultural industries. Taking that cow’s calf away from her, usually after about 24 hours, milking her, and repeating that process again and again until the cow is killed.
Graham I used to be a livestock farmer so I drew on my own experiences. I said, “The first rule of this is: unhappy animals lose you money.” A basic scientific fact is that if a cow suffers fear and produces adrenaline, it suppresses oxytocin and they don’t produce milk. Even if you have no great love for animals, it does pay to take care of them. We have bills to pay just like anyone else, and we need to make money.
Alex He talked about how the separation of the cow and the calf is done for the safety of the calf, as the cow might accidentally crush her child, or the environment isn’t very clean. I tried to explain that the only reason those situations happen is that we forcibly breed these cows in those conditions.
Graham I said, “If you look at it logically, if the whole world were to turn vegan, half of us would starve to death.” You’d be writing off swathes of agricultural land that can’t grow arable crops. He countered that farmers have a lot of grassland, they could rent it out for other use. But what can you rent it out for if you’ve taken away livestock production?
Sharing plate
Alex I told him I voted remain, and as I’ve got older, I’ve started to wonder whether it’s possible to have an informed democratic vote on something like that. This wasn’t a comment about stupid leave voters, it would also apply to me and my friends. We had a tribal motivation – what are your friends voting for, who do you want to stay friends with? It was never going to lead us to a rational position.
Graham I expected sparks to fly; they didn’t. But Alex seemed to think that big decisions like Brexit are too complicated for the average voter and should be left to an elite. I thought that was a very dangerous road. I think the whole thing might have stemmed from Gordon Brown’s refusal to hold a referendum on the Lisbon treaty. If he’d done that, he might have headed off a lot of opposition to the EU.
For afters
Alex If I had one regret, it’s that we didn’t really get into the ethics. I did say, “What is it that makes it acceptable to farm a cow, rather than a human?” He said, “They can’t imagine themselves into the future.” I should have pushed him a bit more.
Graham He seemed to be opposed to keeping dogs and cats as pets! I found that baffling.
Takeaways
Alex Graham was very open to having discussions, more so than a lot of people I’ve met.
Graham He’s about the same age as my daughters, I’d be happy if they ever brought somone like him home. He’s intelligent, pleasant, a little misguided.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
• Alex and Graham ate at Everyday People in Nottingham.
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