Dining across the divide: ‘There’s a lot of po-faced finger-wagging on the progressive left’

Stephen, 47, Sheffield

Occupation Manager working in local authority homeless services

Voting record Normally votes for “some tiny socialist party”. Voted Labour twice under Corbyn, Green once

Amuse bouche Was once on the quizshow Eggheads. Lost miserably

Rory, 32, Manchester

Occupation Merchant navy officer

Voting record Has voted Lib Dem and Green, but usually Labour

Amuse bouche Collects vintage video games. His coolest is probably Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door

For starters

Rory We had quite a bit in common.

Stephen He was younger than I expected, maybe because I’m in denial about my own age. I was expecting a tattooed old tar. He was very nice.

Rory There was a sharing platter of cured meats, and focaccia.

Stephen I had gnocchi and then goulash and we shared a chocolate brownie.

The big beef

Rory On Israel and Palestine, he talked about the solution being a unified secular state, which is quite naive. I don’t see either party agreeing to that. I would describe myself as a two-stater. But I see the Palestinians as responsible for failing to reach that.

Stephen I think his point of view is that, in the past, there had been a viable offer of a two-state solution that was fair: from the Oslo accords to the present, he placed most of the blame at Hamas’s door, and the plight of the Palestinians too. I don’t think any of the offers have been particularly fair. Oslo, Madrid and Camp David enshrined the status quo: they were the beginning of turning Gaza into an open-air prison. There was no autonomy under those proposals, Palestine remained dependent on Israel for everything.

Rory We disagreed about the situation currently in Gaza as well. I’m afraid the only reason Hamas didn’t kill 30,000 people on 7 October is because they lacked the capacity. If you have two sides and one side says in its founding charter: “We seek the destruction of the other side,” I don’t see what other outcome there could be.

Stephen You can put a lot of the blame for the current situation at the feet of the Israeli government and military. The only way you can get towards a single secular state is via an interim power-sharing arrangement and a truth and reconciliation process.

Sharing plate

Stephen I think the recent rise in populism in Europe and the US is more of an issue than he does. From Trump to Orbán to Brexit, the lot of it. We agreed it was a reaction from people feeling excluded from society and the political process. But he felt there was an attitude of condescension on the left – that it couldn’t see the validity of people’s opinions when they voted for Brexit or Trump.

Rory Populists are responding to a demand that’s not being met by mainstream politics. When you look at political scientists who analyse voting patterns, it’s always implicit but never quite said that people were lied to over Brexit. It’s always implicit that these people who voted leave, they could have read the same newspapers as you, they could have had the information you’ve got, but they just didn’t – they’re not that bright, they’re not that well informed.

Stephen Most people have one or two sources of information, and if those are poor or tell you a load of bollocks, you won’t make sound judgments.

Rory Immigration was the primary issue for leavers, and the sense that national identity and culture was being lost. Britain does need immigration, but not the low-skill, low-wage immigration that we’ve got.

For afters

Related: Dining across the divide: ‘They were the first non-binary person I’ve had a conversation with’

Rory There’s a lot of po-faced finger-wagging on the progressive left. That No More Page 3 campaign had no acknowledgment that these women were doing it of their own free will. No, they needed to be reeducated on the correct way to experience being women; these people need uplifting from the vat of stupidity they marinate in.

Stephen He brought up Page 3, how that would be frowned upon by Guardian-reading feminists who’d be happy to watch people romping around if it was in art or in a film. I was saying it’s not so much about what’s produced as the way it’s produced. The nudity you’d encounter through the arts would be differently made.

Takeaways

Rory He was a nice fella, perfectly affable, we shook hands.

Stephen I definitely would go for a pint with him if I met him again.

Additional reporting: Kitty Drake

• Rory and Stephen ate at The Spärrows in Manchester

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