Dining across the divide: ‘They were the first non-binary person I’ve had a conversation with’

Caro, 57, Macclesfield

Occupation Medical herbalist and aviation safety officer

Voting record Party of preference would be the Lib Dems, but has voted for everybody in turn

Amuse bouche Despite being a self-confessed lifetime loather of running, Caro recently ran their first 5k in just under 28 minutes

Paul, 67, near Sheffield

Occupation IT architect

Voting record Conservative for quite a few elections. “Seriously considering” spoiling the ballot paper for the next one, on the grounds that spoilt ballots do get counted

Amuse bouche A keen rock climber who started off doing sea-cliff climbing; a lot of the cliffs he has scaled have since fallen down. It’s really very dangerous

For starters

Caro Paul was more up to speed with the different types of tapas, so he picked, and I agreed.

Paul Tapas was excellent news for me, I’m very fond of it. We had padron peppers, boquerones, delicious tenderstem broccoli, affogato de Pedro Ximenez to finish.

Caro He came across as somebody who was maybe a bit unsure about his place in the world. It felt as if he sometimes needed to stress that men are important.

Paul I thought it might be a bit intimidating, but in fact it turned out that they were very approachable. They didn’t exude any feeling that they were going to be difficult to get on with.

The big beef

Caro He said: “Why should women be able to pick the best bits about being men, as well as the best bits of being women?” I thought: “Really?” I’ve been trying to get away from being female all my life. I identify as non-binary. What are these benefits of being a woman?

Paul Caro is non-binary, and was the first non-binary person I’ve had a conversation with, although I have a friend who has a transgender child. I thought: “I’m going to have to go into this with a very open mind.” But most of the things we were talking about were around gender; in particular, I’m interested in the fact that, at the moment, all the traffic seems to be one way, favouring girls. A lot of women choose to stay at home with their children, and they’ve chosen to be disadvantaged at work.

Caro I think his wife chose to stay at home and raise their three sons. Which is fine if you have that choice, but today so many couples have to have a double income to maintain a basic quality of life. If women – or people with uteruses – are the only ones who can produce children, you have to cut them some slack. They are doing a great service to society by producing the next generation.

Paul There are a lot of positive discrimination activities that favour women, and my view is that there is no such thing as positive discrimination. As soon as you weight it in one direction, you have to unweight it in the other. It’s a zero sum game.

Related: Dining across the divide: ‘He doesn’t like “the man”, anyone above, making decisions for him’

Sharing plate

Caro We got on to talking about masculinity, Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson, and how working-class white boys are seriously disadvantaged. We were in agreement about that. It came down to people not really knowing their place in the world. I wouldn’t want to be a young person growing up now.

Paul I take great exception to the term “toxic masculinity”, I’d like to see it outlawed. I wanted to draw a very clear line between Andrew Tate, who, it seems to me, is an extremely dangerous, malign influence, and Jordan Peterson, who is a professor of psychology, who has very sound intellectual arguments. His manner can be grating, but his points are valid.

For afters

Paul Caro had very interesting stories about their early career as a pilot, and explained a continuous evolution – not fitting in as a woman, trying, and now finally feeling they can be themselves, without the stereotypes.

Caro I think he was vaguely interested in all of this. With a lot of things, unless they impact you directly, you wouldn’t necessarily think about them or question them. At birth, we’re pigeonholed into two big boxes, some people are quite happy to live within that, other people aren’t. British society really tries to pin you down.

Takeaways

Paul If we met in the street, I would definitely stop and chat. A very interesting person.

Caro I found him very pleasant company. I wouldn’t hesitate to meet and greet him if I were to see him again.

Additional reporting: Kitty Drake

• Caro and Paul ate at Porta in Chester

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