Dining across the divide: ‘He came with a list, papers, diagrams. I think he’s confused’
Stuart, 57, Ascot
Occupation Former management consultant, now on sickness benefits
Voting record Conservative or nothing (he didn’t vote for John Major or Boris Johnson)
Amuse bouche Stuart’s now ex-wife would turn his signed picture of Margaret Thatcher to face the wall when they had guests. He says, “Usually, I just turned it back again”
Jérôme, 50, London
Occupation Health and social care worker for a charity
Voting record Jérôme, who was born in Colombia, has lived in the UK for 30 years but has French nationality so cannot vote in general elections. He describes himself as “to the left”
Amuse bouche When the Brit awards were held in east London in the late 90s, Jérôme was working at a hotel and got to meet lots of the stars. “The nicest was Heather Small from M People”
For starters
Stuart He is thoughtful, compassionate and articulate … not words you’d use to describe me, with the possible exception of thoughtful. But when the really difficult questions came up, he seemed to withdraw.
Jérôme I felt that if he’d let the other person speak there would have been more of a discussion. He came with a list, papers, diagrams. I think he is confused – one minute he’ll have strong views on a subject and won’t budge, the next he will contradict himself. I didn’t want to create a bad vibe, but it was hard not to say, “Can’t you see you have just argued both sides?”
The big beef
Jérôme Between 96 and 97, under severe amphetamine addiction, I committed robbery, got caught, pleaded guilty, was sentenced to three years in prison and did 18 months. Then in 2000, I was wrongly convicted at the Old Bailey of a serious crime. It took two years for my appeal to come through, then less than 25 minutes for three judges to set me free. I got PTSD as a result, and it took two years of therapy to get over it.
Stuart We did agree that the way our prison system works is stupid.
Jérôme It’s very costly to the taxpayer – more than £46k a year per prisoner on average. But it does not rehabilitate.
Stuart My solution is straightforward: 50% of people in prison have serious mental health problems; a massive expansion of the mental health services is essential. The other 50% – the career criminals – I would deport to the Falkland Islands. You could put up a barrier between East Falkland and West Falkland, like a Berlin Wall.
Jérôme It is a ridiculous idea, like going back to Papillon times.
Stuart It was slightly tongue in cheek, but based on fact. Norway and Belgium have tried exporting prisoners to the Netherlands because the Netherlands has a declining prison population.
Sharing plate
Stuart I was a crystal meth user in Australia. I nearly jumped off the balcony of a 12-storey building, so I decided at that point drugs weren’t a good idea and came home.
Jérôme I was heavily into chemsex. I got clean by means of a drug rehabilitation order. Drugs should be decriminalised: penalising people for something that is a disorder, your brain not functioning properly, doesn’t work. People take drugs to self-medicate – there is trauma that hasn’t been processed. When Portugal decriminalised possession, crime went down.
Stuart By regulating drugs, you use the tax for addiction services and education. Criminalisation consumes a huge amount of resources.
For afters
Stuart The solution for illegal immigration is the same as for prisoners: deport them. They have come knowing it is illegal to set foot on our shores – that makes them criminals. If you replaced Rwanda with the Netherlands, no one would have a problem. We talked about Eritreans. He said an Eritrean has to walk 10 miles for water, and should be able to come to Britain because he has the right to a better life. And where do you stop? What does that do to our economy? How do we house them?
Jérôme People come because there are opportunities. That’s how the world has always been – it is for everyone.
Takeaways
Stuart He said he had to get home to his dog. I’m not sure if that’s because he had a dog or he’d had enough.
Jérôme He’s a cultured and educated person, but he’s not going on my Christmas card list.
Additional reporting: Kitty Drake
• Stuart and Jérôme ate at Hithe and Seek, London EC4
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