Dining across the divide: ‘He would say you should fund your own social care; I don’t think we should have to’

Sean, 53, Newcastle

Occupation Copywriter

Voting record Sean, originally from Scotland, has voted SNP there. A Labour supporter in England, he says he’s “just a pretty unreconstructed socialist”

Amuse bouche On the same day he learned he was being expelled from Oxford University, Sean found out that a poem of his was being published in an anthology alongside one by Johnny Cash

Paul, 54, Newcastle

Occupation Management consultant

Voting record Conservative for ever, but once voted Ukip “on the grounds it was the only hope of not having a Labour MP”

Amuse bouche Paul has lived in Dubai and Abu Dhabi, and has travelled extensively throughout the Middle East

For starters

Sean Paul had a nice (dare I say) aura about him. Open, genial, jovial. He had been out in the Middle East; I had, too.

Paul Sean’s got a big beard, a lot of hair and a very obvious Scottish accent. Imposing is the wrong word – maybe a smaller Hagrid, a very likable guy. He’s very clever – he went to Oxford for heaven’s sake.

Sean It’s an Indian restaurant, but the modern twist is it has a smoke oven, so everything has a kind of smoked taste.

Paul We had tandoori broccoli, an onion and samphire bhaji, then butter chicken and rogan josh. And probably three Kingfisher beers each over three hours.

The big beef

Sean He would say you should fund your own social care; I don’t think we should have to. It’s hard enough as a contractor or freelancer to afford a pension, never mind social care. Once you go down that route, it will bring privatisation by stealth into the NHS.

Paul A lot of people think social care is the same as the NHS – free at the point of need – when it absolutely isn’t. We don’t seem to want to acknowledge exactly how much more we’re going to have to raise in taxation to pay for the service people want. How much is it going to cost and where is the money going to come from?

Sean People in the creative industries should be given a wee bit of support. I don’t believe in that Thatcherite credo, there is no such thing as society. We have a responsibility to each other. That’s what is missing from politics – mercy, if you like. We did agree that social care needs more regulation. My great-aunt was in a council-run care home where she had wonderful care. But anyone can move into the sector and open up what is akin to a granny farm.

Paul No government wants to, but maybe you ringfence some elements of taxation for social care. Or, since the amount anyone was expected to pay was capped at £86K, then at least you have something to insure against. You could also just have a personal fund you pay into alongside your taxation to fund your social care, so it doesn’t come out of your house.

Sharing plate

Sean It’s a very bifurcated system in this country – Labour, Tory; like with Celtic and Rangers, you know one is going to win the league. We agreed that more plurality in the democratic structure would be a good thing.

Paul We’re both frustrated that too much of the conversation is on the extremes of left and right. People have more common ground than you think.

For afters

Sean The rich should be taxed more. If you’re fortunate enough to work in the City as a hedge fund manager, you should stump up for someone living below the poverty threshold in Toxteth.

Paul On taxation, Sean is more redistributive and progressive. I have always bought into the argument that if you target the top, these are the people who can pay for tax avoidance schemes or put everything offshore.

Sean I’ve done interviews with people who are quite rich – Ian Anderson from Jethro Tull, for example. He moved to Switzerland in the 70s when there was 75% taxation for high earners in the UK, but he got bored and came back. It’s the old Orson Welles quote from The Third Man: “Five hundred years of democracy and peace, and what did they come up with? The cuckoo clock.”

Takeaways

Paul I should make more effort to engage with people with different points of view. That is why I did this. It doesn’t mean you aren’t going to get on, as long as you don’t think the conversation is about proving you’re right.

Sean In many ways, left and right is becoming redundant – more unites than divides us, particularly having gone through seismic changes like the pandemic. We swapped phone numbers and we’ll meet for a pint some time.

Additional reporting: Kitty Drake

• Paul and Sean ate at Khai Khai in Newcastle.

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