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Adam Deacon Talks To Alastair Campbell About Learning To Live With Bipolar

The good news is that we are talking about mental health more. The bad news is the reason we still have to: continuing stigma which makes people feel they cannot be open and ask for the help they need; discrimination in the workplace; and above all services which simply do not match the need, for young and old alike.

In advance of World Mental Health Day, we are publishing a remarkable conversation between Alastair Campbell, one of the country’s leading campaigners on mental health who uses his own experience of depression to raise awareness, and Adam Deacon. The 38-year-old BAFTA-winning actor/writer/director who lives with bipolar disorder and has twice been sectioned and hospitalised. It was while recovering from his second breakdown, during lockdown, that he decided to speak out openly about his own struggles, as a way of giving hope that though it is possible to lose your mind, it is also possible to get it back, and come back stronger.

Likewise, Alastair, 64, believes any success he has had in his life has been in part because of his mental health struggles, rather than despite them. Adam said that when he was ill, reading about Alastair’s recovery, and hearing him speak about it, helped his own. But he also felt there were few people of his own generation, from his own background ‘out there’ talking in the same way. He wants to be that person, that others can relate to, should they face the torment of mental ill health.

We make no apology for running their conversation at length. We think it merits it.

Alastair Campbell: The new Covid-19 thing is to say ‘how are you?’ but mean it.

Photo credit: Tim P. Whitby
Photo credit: Tim P. Whitby

Adam Deacon: Yeah. How are you?

AC: Do you mean it?

AD: (laughs) Yeah. How are you feeling today?

AC: Well, every morning when I wake up, I give myself a mark out of ten. This morning was five, which is not great, but it's alright. One is – I can fly – and ten is suicide. Two or three is where I like to be. What about you? How are you?

AD: I'm feeling good.

AC: You've had a bad time of late, though, haven't you?

AD: I had a strange one in lockdown. I thought I was doing so well. Then all of a sudden out of nowhere I had a breakdown.

AC: What does that mean when you said you had a breakdown?

AD: Well, I was diagnosed as having bipolar in early 2015. I was told about it, as in you're going to have really high moments and really low moments, and I just felt low for a long time. Then the depression started to fade, and I started to question if I even have bipolar. Then in lockdown I realised well, I do have it. Covid-19 hit me quite hard. I've got an elderly mum and I was really worried about her, and it just felt surreal. I live by myself so I couldn't see anyone. I remember being online and seeing the whole rise of Black Lives Matter with the death of George Floyd and it really affected me. I got really into it. I felt the need to stay up all night and debate why you shouldn't be racist and why everyone is born equal. Then at the same time, I was going through my own conflicts, which I spoke about before, and I started writing again about my own conflicts on social media and before I knew it that took over. I was writing some crazy stuff on social media that didn't really make sense.

AC: Did you know it didn't make sense?

AD: No, I thought I thought it was spot on, and people are going to understand. But all around me my friends and family, they were getting worried, and I couldn't understand it. To a point where they were ringing me saying – are you okay man? I just blocked everyone because I couldn't understand why everyone could not understand what I was doing. Then all of a sudden something just dawned on me. I was in my flat and I realised what I was writing was wrong. This was five nights of having no sleep, no food, and I realised what I had done could set me back years.

AC: What do you think brought that realisation?

AD: I had a conversation with a friend, and they were saying things that I wasn't expecting them to say. I was expecting them to be really supportive and understand that what I'm saying all makes sense, but it was just the worst. Woah! What have you done? This isn't right. You haven't slept. What’s going on? I just lost hope. I've never had this before. I'd always heard about panic attacks, but I've never understood what that really meant. My whole body just collapsed on the floor. I couldn't breathe properly. I called up 999 and said I feel messed up. I feel suicidal. I feel I don't know what’s going on. I have to say they got there really quickly. They came to my house really quick. Saying that, the police came as well, and I spent eight hours in the hospital handcuffed which I felt wasn't needed. I wasn't a threat to anyone. I know I might have looked quite scary; I was shouting things. I was just scared.

AC: Were you hearing voices?

AD: No. But I thought I saw friends of mine in the hospital and when I looked back, they couldn't have been there. That confused me. Why are they here? Why are they not coming up to me? And I was handcuffed at the time so I couldn't go to them. I think that's something I'm adamant about. There needs to be change in the first few hours of a mental breakdown and the way they treat you when it first happens.

AC: It's hard on the police though isn't it. The only time I've ever had psychosis was in 1986 and it was two coppers who actually saved me. They arrested me but they did it in a way that was really calm and nice. It must have been severe if you weren't threatening them, but you were in handcuffs.

AD: Yeah, but that might be something to do with things I was previously arrested for which I have spoken about. Back in 2014 I was doing things I would never do. Never do in a million years.

AC: Like what?

AD: Like I pulled out a sword on a stranger because… I won't bore you with the ins and outs, but I was having a breakdown. I was arrested before that for harassment, for calling up an actor who was sabotaging me and bullying me at the time. When one of the papers wrote about my arrest, they printed my address in the paper. It sent my paranoia into a crazy level, Alastair. I felt like anyone walking through my estate – who are they? Are they paps? Are they here to harm me? Who is this person on my estate? Then I started going out there, and a lot of it was a blur, but I remember going up to someone and asking: where are you from? Do you live in this estate? Why are you here? The papers called it a machete. It wasn't. It was a blunt-edged art piece antique. It wouldn't have actually caused any damage, but I understand how scary it would have been. I don't know the person I did that to but literally I apologise so much. I would never do anything like that. That is when I realise your whole mind can go. You can lose your mind. And I did. It went to court, and I was found not guilty. I was so blessed that the jury understood I was ill. I was not well at the time. I can't thank them enough for understanding that. It really taught me a lot about the justice system and how many people there are inside who probably shouldn't be imprisoned and should be in a hospital. They need help.

AC: So how many breakdowns have you had like that in your life?

AD: Two. The one in 2014 meant that I was in the hospital for three months. That was a long stay. For the more recent one I was in for a week. As soon as I had something to eat, as soon as they gave me some medication to get some sleep, I felt normal again the next day. I understood I was wrong; I unblocked all my friends and family. I apologised to everyone and thanked them for being there. Then I was adamant to learn about bipolar because it’s clear that I've got it and it’s something that scared me

AC: Was that the first time you felt suicidal?

Photo credit: Eamonn McCormack
Photo credit: Eamonn McCormack

AD: I felt suicidal back in 2014, but it felt more extreme in 2020. I realised, wow, even when things are going well, and you do think that everything is fine in your life you can have this sudden feeling. I don't ever want to kill myself. I know that. I love life, I love the people in my life, and I never want to do that. But I realised for the first time that this is an actual illness and if it doesn't get looked at, and if I don't let my friends and family know how I'm feeling, it can go down a really bad route and it’s scary when you hear about Robin Williams…

AC: One in twenty people who end their own life are living with bipolar. What have you learned then about the two episodes that you think might help you if you get into a bad way again?

AD: I took the time out to really work out my mind. There are first steps, first triggers, when I get a feeling that I want to tweet about it. I want to let the world know how I'm feeling. Slow it down. I used to wake up and want to tweet. Now I won’t go on Twitter in the morning until I've thought about it, and until I've thought about what I'm writing.

AC: What is it about the social media thing?

AD: I don't know what it is Alastair. It’s really addictive and it’s really dangerous. I've had therapy recently and my counsellor said that I've got this sudden burning thing inside me for justice and when I feel like either someone I know is being done wrong or I've been done wrong I want to let the world know, I want something done about this. And that's a problem that I've got.

AC: Is it that you want the world to care?

AD: I used to think the world would care when you put something out there. When I was going through what I've experienced in the acting industry, I was putting out there what was happening to me, and I thought people would care. I thought that people would listen. No one did. It was just silence out there. It goes back to how we started the conversation. People ask how you are, but do they really care? It gets asked every day, but people need to ask that question and sometimes expect a different answer: “I'm not feeling too good.” And are you going to give that person the time? Are you going to talk them through that? It sounds corny but we do need to talk more. Especially men. When I was in hospital the amount of young men that came up to me and said, “I've read about your stuff. I relate to it. I've been through it. I thought I was the only one.” And I thought I was the only one as well.

AC: I had a weird one in lockdown as well.

AD: I heard about it.

AC: I've never been diagnosed as having bipolar. I get treated for unipolar depression. But I have these episodes where I'm certainly manic, there’s no doubt about it.

AD: It sounded manic when I was listening on LBC about the story. It sounded like a manic bipolar episode.

AC: Well, basically, I do this thing, right, when I'm a bit high, where I can sing to the tune of Flower of Scotland and describe any situation that I'm in. My partner knows I'm going a bit crazy when I'm doing that. I'll do it in bed. I'll do it in the bathroom when I'm brushing my teeth. I'll do it when I'm having breakfast. We're out there walking on the heath and I'm still doing it. I then decide to do national anthems. So, I was changing the lyrics to national anthems - French, Russian, American, South African, Italian - all the great national anthems. By the time I got home, I did it to God Save The Queen. The lyrics were about how Boris Johnson was in love with Dominic Cummings. Absolutely crazy stuff. I put a picture of the Queen on the wall, and I put on a suit and tie, and I wore my brother's military medals. And I posted it on social media. And all hell let loose. It’s interesting when you said a friend said something to you and it made you realise – I had exactly the same. A friend phoned me up and just said, do us a favour and turn your phone off for a few days. It was the way he said it. What happened then was I just had a massive plunge. Hit the floor.

AD: When you were doing that, I’m guessing that you thought people were going to love it!

AC: And they sort of did up until that point. But it was going over the top that people realised.

AD: When I was having my outburst on Twitter, I was getting messages from massive Hollywood actors that I've never spoken to in my life. They were like, we need to work together. When someone is going through a breakdown you shouldn't just say things. Because you will go away and remember that stuff. When people go silent after it gets to you.

AC: Don't you think it’s hard for other people to know what to do?

AD: That's so true.

AC: How is your girlfriend? You mentioned your girlfriend.

AD: I'm so lucky. I've been with Celia about a year and a half now. Listening to some of your talks in the past is the importance of having someone who understands it and someone who gets you and I never thought I'd find that. We met just before I had my breakdown and I thought she would run a mile. She was there for me. I treated her really badly. I told her she's the one that's crazy, to stay away from me. She was outside my flat making sure I was alright. She's met me at a really bad time and she's still there. The main thing is how she can read my mood before I can read my mood. She knows if I haven't had sleep, if I haven't eaten. I’ll have a crazy one, and I'll want to tweet about what this person has done this to me, and she'll say slow down, slow down. Think about this, think about that. It stops me doing it. I start to calm down. It’s amazing having someone there for you. I love her to pieces, man.

AC: It’s so funny because one of the turning points in my life was when I was in hospital in 1986, and before the breakdown I had moved out because Fiona [Alastair’s partner] and I had been going through a bad time because I was so crazy. When she walked into my room and I realised she wasn’t leaving me, it was like a massive turning point in my life. I think it sounds like you've got the right person there.

Photo credit: LEON NEAL
Photo credit: LEON NEAL

AD: I think I've got the one and I feel so blessed. My main thing is I never thought you could lose your mind and get it back. When I lost my mind, I thought I was going to be in hospital forever and my friends thought I was going to be this local madman in a park talking to himself. I believed that as well at certain times. To know that not only can you get your mind back, but you can have it stronger than ever, now I feel better than I've ever felt. I feel more creative than I've ever felt. I just want to be back on set working. The hardest thing is to prove to people that you're cool. That you're well. Because one thing I do find very inspirational about you, Alastair, which gave me a lot of hope, is that you've been so open about your mental health struggles, but you've been doing some really high-profile jobs so I'm assuming that the people around you understood on that level, and they worked with you and they understood your talent. That’s all I can hope for is that people can understand I am cool to be on set, I am fine to be on set. I'm normal. I'm not going to do the crazy thing. I take my meds now, I've got a wonderful girlfriend, I've got good friends and you can get better. I hope there is a lot more understanding from employers and from the general public that you can get better.

AC: I think it’s definitely getting better. But I think there is a long way to go. I've always been really lucky with my employers. Tony Blair was good, and when I was a journalist, the absolute saving point for me was my former boss phoning me up in hospital, saying listen, you've fucked up. You're in a bad way. When you get better, come back here.

AD: Amazing. That's what you need. That support. It can change the way you're feeling when you realise people have your back.

AC: I had a brother who had schizophrenia and he held down the same job for 27 years at Glasgow University. They never defined him by his illness.

AD: I know it gets said a lot but if you break your leg, your leg gets better. It gets healed. It’s the same with your mind. That’s what people need to realise. There is hope out there. There is hope.

AC: Do you accept that you'll probably have another episode at some point in the future?

AD: Yeah. I feel like there is not much I can do about that, but I feel like if I keep the people around me that I have now hopefully it will be okay, it won't last long, and I'll get through it. Because I've gotten through it twice now and I've always felt better when it’s ended, and I've always felt stronger when it’s ended.

AC: How many big depressive episodes have you had?

AD: I will always have depression there in the background. I left home when I was 15, there was violence in my household, and it was a crazy childhood. I would go off and sit in a room, even when I was young, 11 or 12, and just sit in darkness and just think and contemplate things. As an actor, if I got a part, there was this elation. I'd do the job, I'd meet people, I'd love it, I'd learn my lines, I'd be on set. Then we'd wrap and we'd finish the job, and you never meet the people again. I would just have this massive downer, go home and switch my phone off. I wouldn't want to talk to anyone for five days. I'd sit there.

AC: Is that why you think you didn't get the diagnosis for so long? Because you were just mainly depressed?

AD: It took me a long time to get help. I was so embarrassed to tell anyone I had depression. I worried people will see me as weak, they'll think I'm crazy. When I went to the doctor, he said I saw you on TV last week and you were looking fine! You'll be alright! We'll give you some antidepressants. I was begging them for counselling. I was saying this goes a lot deeper, there are things that have gone on in my childhood. I need to sort it out. If I'm being honest, I was palmed off. I don't think I got the help that I needed. That’s a problem, because the fact that there is so much more focus on mental health and we are breaking the stigma, that means more people will want to get help and there needs to be the help there when people are asking for it. So, it seems like what we do is we always wait for the emergency – the breakdown – when you're going out there doing things you shouldn't do, and the police are involved. Then we get the help. Then we get sectioned. Then we get diagnosed.

AC: We've got an illness service, not a health service. Part of my management now is to accept that it’s going to happen again.

AD: I've got levels to it, Alastair. Now, all in all, I feel really calm. That is nothing compared to the depression I had in 2015. I felt suicidal. I got to that point where I didn't care who saw my cry. I just wanted to end it. I’d go to events but go out for a cigarette and google ‘ways to end it’. I didn't think there was any way out. I never thought things would get better. When I'm having just a low day, which is not that deep, then I realise you're just feeling a bit low, go with it, go with the flow, maybe in a couple days you'll feel better. I normally do feel better. I guess there are different levels to it. What I found helped me as well was listening to other people with bipolar. Going on YouTube, listening to people's stories.

AC: What is your relationship with medication? Do you feel okay with it?

AD: I've been so up and down with it. This is the first time I've actually spoken about my medication. I'm glad you asked me that. When they first told me in hospital that I had to take medication, I was totally against it. I was asking myself: what are they putting in me? Are they going to change my mind? Am I not going to be as creative as I used to be? Of course, I ended up taking the pills, but nothing was really happening at first. I wasn't feeling better and nothing seemed to change, except that I was putting on weight. So I stopped taking them. I kind of got through that period myself, if I'm being honest – just by going on long walks and buying a dog. But then I realised that what the doctors needed to do was to experiment. They're not going to find this pill that helps you just like that. They are going to need experiment with different medication. They're going to play around with it. They said, look, we want to try this new drug. So I said OK, let’s just try it. If it’s going to make me feel a lot better, let’s just try it. And it did. It actually started to make me feel a bit better and that's when I realised that I trust the NHS with everything else.

AC: I went through exactly the same. I kept coming off medication. This one I'm on now, I've been on it for six years.

AD: What I'd say to anyone is you don't have to be ashamed of medication. I said to myself, you eat a lot of junk food, you smoke cannabis, you drink Coca Cola, Red Bull. What’s another chemical in your body? It actually started to work. I actually started to feel better. I lost that thing of being ashamed of it.

AC: Do you think it had to do with who the doctor was? Because I was always very anti, but I think it was to do with the doctor. Then I found this doctor in 2005 who I really liked and trusted.

AD: Yeah, we trust doctors to do things to your body so why do we have this different outlook when it comes to the mind? I do feel better than I've ever felt. I feel more creative than ever. And I am on medication. It took me a while to get my head around the fact that you've got to take a pill every day for life. Before I go to bed, I take my pill and I don't really think about it anymore. It’s just one of those things that I do. When I did stop – I stopped last year for ages – I think it had a part to play in that breakdown.

AC: What hospital was it?

AD: Mile End. I take my hat off to the people that work there. What they do for the patients, day in and day out. When it came out in the media that I was sectioned it felt like I was being looked down upon, like, you're a crazy person. If I had been a celebrity who had that, and maybe gone to the Priory, it would have been a fashionable statement and it would have been accepted that I'd paid these thousands of pounds to get help. Why is it we look differently when it’s the NHS and when we've had to be sectioned? All that's different is that someone’s had to come in and give you the help rather than you go out spending thousands knowing that you've got a problem. I don't think we should look down at the mental health services of the NHS. They do an amazing job. It could be better. They need more funding; they need more help. But they got me better and I can’t thank them enough. I wouldn't be sitting here now if it wasn't for them. So, they do amazing work. Got a lot of love for the NHS and what they've done for me.

AC: Do you find now that people come and talk to you about their mental health?

AD: Yeah, I get that all the time. What I forget sometimes is when doing these interviews like this, I'm just talking. I'm just having a conversation with you. But you forget that people watch this stuff, and you forget that people are listening. I find it surreal when people want to come up to me and talk about their mental health and tell me things like they felt suicidal and it’s really overwhelming when you hear this stuff, but you start to realise that you are having an impact and people are listening. When I was sectioned I was going on YouTube and I was trying to find people I could relate to. Stephen Fry came up a lot, you came up a lot. But I felt like there was no one from my background, from a council estate, that spoke like me, that I could listen to and realise that they went through it. I started to realise, if I ever get better, I've got to use the platform that I've got to talk about this stuff because no doubt there will be people that need to hear this.

AC: I'll tell you an amazing story. I wrote a book, Living Better, nearly two years ago now, about depression. I got an email a few months ago now and the subject heading just said: your book saved my life. By the end I was in tears. He said that he's long-term depressive, he's got a wife and two kids, and that his dad read my book and gave it to him. He said, “Look, I know you're struggling, read this, maybe it will help.” He said that he put it on his bedside table, and it sat there for six months. Didn't even open it. Not interested. Then he said one day, not long ago, he decided he was going to end it all. He waited until the kids were in bed. He waited until his wife was asleep. He got up and went down to the car. He knew where he was going to do it. He was going to go just off the M62 – there's this junction you go down with a steep hill and a few massive trees at the bottom and he had worked out that he was going to drive into the trees and go through the windscreen. He said he listened to books in the car and, without knowing what made him do it, he downloaded my book on Audible. He said that by Chapter 3, which is about the suicide of my cousin, he turned around and went home. He woke his wife up and for the first time ever he told her what he’d been thinking about.

AD: That's powerful man. That's powerful.

AC: You can speak to a completely different demographic to me or Stephen Fry. It’s so important you do it.

AD: I'm all about that. I just think we need to talk about this stuff more.

AC: The other thing I think with bipolar – it struggles to find its place in the mental health landscape. Anxiety and depression, there's more coverage of it, more debate about it. Schizophrenia – the really, really serious mental illnesses – people get it. Bipolar gravitates between them.

AD: Also, it’s used as a bit of a joke. When someone is acting odd, people say: I swear you've got bipolar man. You're acting a bit bipolar.

AC: Same with OCD. People use OCD like that.

AD: Yeah, they do. I think because of that people forget that it is actually an illness and people go through it. I count myself as really lucky because I'm in a profession with a bit more understanding. There are many people at work, whether it’s a sports shop or an office, where they feel they can't talk to their boss. They can't talk to their friends or family. One thing about being in an East London hospital was that they were real people there. They weren't celebrities. I realised how blessed I am because I saw people whose whole family just locked them off. They'd leave them in hospital. They had nowhere to live. Their whole family would lock them off and they had no-one.

AC: There's still a lot of shame.

AD: People are really scared of it. I'm sure people are scared of me when they read about the things I've done and the way the media spoke about it. For the last seven years I've been trying to prove to people that I'm well. There was a story on EastEnders recently about a character who has got schizophrenia and I think they've done it really well. And because they've done the storyline for a while now, people are starting to understand it, and I think that’s great.

AC: Oh listen, some of the stuff in the soaps has been brilliant. They really take care to get it right as well.

AD: I do think the more we talk about it, the more we need funding for mental health. There needs to be somewhere that people get the help when they ask for it.

AC: Well, we've got to get rid of this fucking government then.

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